Stance shifting for power

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Stance shifting for power

Postby Tye Botting » Tue Aug 24, 2004 1:47 pm

From the old boards...

Dan N

Stance shifting for power
Started at Tue Mar 9 20:30:35 2004 IP165.91.177.45 Alright, I know that we're supposed to train everything equally, but everyone has a set of steps/techniques they really like.

Here's a few of mine

A backwards steal step(redundant I know) into a cross stance followed by a turn into a front forward stance(teng shan); a lot of power here for an overhead strike with a weapon.

Loading up into a cat stance and then powering forward into a front stance while striking (i.e. Lung Chuan) oldman

Standing on one leg(Tu Li) and stepping back into a front-weighted forward stance while striking downward (ie Bei fong Chuan)

These are just a couple of moves. I really enjoy all the techniques and transitions I have been exposed to, but these really just click with me...Now I know you are all guilty of having favorites... shocked


ArteXerxes

Re: Stance shifting for power
Reply #1 Posted at Tue Mar 9 20:38:58 2004 IP68.84.86.140 *Arte raises his hand*

Umm, what do you mean by "power generation"? We )meaning my style and my students) probably generate power from stances, but I'm not sure what you're really asking - we don't say "power generation" a lot...undecided

Arte


Dan N

Re: Stance shifting for power
Reply #2 Posted at Tue Mar 9 20:53:10 2004 IP165.91.177.45 *putting on glasses and walking to blackboard*

good question...Now I have to put this into words...oh boy...

I guess I mean the connection to the ground, as well as the way the movements work together to provide an extra amount of force. For example, standing in a front stance and doing a reverse punch should feel pretty good. You should feel like your strike will knock someone over. but let's say instead you start in a horse riding stance and then you turn into a front stance (pushing off your back leg) while throwing a reverse punch. Now I feel like I could knock a house down! That simple transition of stances adds a much greater level of force - what I call power generation. Couple these stance changes with good hip movement and the lower back and you've got yourself a pretty powerful strike with a minimal amount of effort. Tye, feel free to add/correct me, I am fumbling in the dark a little. Hope this helps Arte cool


Tye Botting
Administrator

Re: Stance shifting for power
Reply #3 Posted at Tue Mar 9 21:05:37 2004
Last Modified at Wed Mar 10 17:50:08 2004 by Tye Botting IP199.184.208.111 Good example, and one that will connect with people from many styles.

My quick answer is possibly more blase and less illustrative: power generation is just the action of creating the force used to apply your techniques.

It can be internal or external, and used for any technique from striking to blocking to moving to unbalancing to locking to dissolving. It could apply to standup or groundwork, though I'm sure Arte could help to give us examples on the ground (for example how you generate power to effect bridging?)


Tye Botting
Administrator

Re: Stance shifting for power
Reply #4 Posted at Tue Mar 9 21:24:52 2004 IP199.184.208.111 Back to your question, though, Dan. I have quite few favorites for striking (call me fickle...), most you are already familiar with.

- xingyi-style old-man pi-quan "splitting" strikes (c.f. Lung Chuan), just by whole-body shuffling
- shifting from high stance to very low cat, with simultaneous whole-body power focussed into a chopping-downward motion with the arm (c.f. Bei Fang Chuan)
- shifting from very low cat, uncoiling with your whole body into a long, low forward-weighted stance while chopping diagonally sideways
- any Balintawak-style strike of the type we used to do in the "Start" level of right-on-right Tapi-Tapi in Modern Arnis (also in the obstruction removal drill I call "slappy-tapi" wink
- walking through, either natural-stance, teng shan, or even steal-step.

- but also Chen-style whole-body opening power starting from whole-body contracted together and opening explosively outwards (remind me to show you)

...better stop now, before I ramble on entirely too far... cheesy


Dan S

Re: Stance shifting for power
Reply #5 Posted at Wed Mar 10 01:25:35 2004 IP204.210.96.119 Horse to forward, or forward to cross, coupled with a trap (to a move through) or a lock (to a throw.)

I'm sort of liking a standing/hop to cat stance with a sinking punch, (Fo Chin) but I'm not sure if it's just because it feels sort of new to me right now.

Next would probably be a something
to horse elbow or shoulder strike.


ArteXerxes

Re: Stance shifting for power
Reply #6 Posted at Wed Mar 10 15:44:35 2004 IP68.84.86.140 Will try to get all these posts responded too in one long one, forgive the length of this post happy

Dan S - Ahhhhhhhhh, I gotcha. Well, in Judo stances like that are used all the time. My pet technique is Tai Otoshi, which is a throw that requires me to do almost exactly what you're saying (stand in a kind horse stance, then whip my body around towards a direction, and push my arm out). So I suppose that the side-stance, to front-stance is one of my favorite stance shifts (I think I said that right). Of course, there's about a billion other things going on during Tai Otoshi, but just the footwork appears to be as you're describing.

Other ones I like? Hmmm, there's another throw called the Kharabelli that starts off with my feet together but I'm leaning onto my uke so they're thrown really far behind me (almost like a sprawl - and I'm creating an arch by leaning on Uke). If I'm going to throw to the right then I step into a deep front stance with my left leg, then pivot to my right as I withdraw my right leg in a semi-Aikido-istic fashion. It's a pretty big throw (I literally pick up someone and then slam them down), so the legs have to do a lot of the work.

Tye - On the ground, it's very similar to standing up except easier happy Take the head away from the hips if you want to unbalance someone, seperate the limb from the body if you want to lock something, seperate the jaw from the chest if you want to choke someone.

Gah! Be back in a bit - will try to clarify and re-assert my premises.

Arte


ArteXerxes

Re: Stance shifting for power
Reply #7 Posted at Wed Mar 10 17:17:14 2004 IP68.84.86.140 Alright, back - sorry about that.

Generating power on the ground - hips, hips, and more hips. It's imperative that your hips do almost all of the work, because you're legs are often useless for anything other than obstructions.

If I want to get a good bridge, I get Uke's center of balance on top of my hips - if I can't bring Uke to my hips, then I bring my hips to Uke. Also, if you want anything done, it needs to be done in 45 degree incremints (sp?). So, 45, 90, 135, 180, 225, etc., etc.

Can anyone translate what I'm saying into Stance shifting terms? I'm still new to that idea.

Arte


Dan N

Re: Stance shifting for power
Reply #8 Posted at Wed Mar 10 17:45:58 2004
Last Modified at Wed Mar 10 17:46:53 2004 by Dan N IP165.91.177.45 Okay, I think I understand "Uke" now...that's your opponent right? Had to do a little bit of research glasses

Here's my $.02 on this subject. Again feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

The 45 degrees notion seems to be a pretty solid number, but with stances I believe that maximum power comes in 90 degree changes and increments thereof. Any angle in between would most likely be tactical in nature, ie I don't want to throw the person with full power because I am not interested in hurting them, or hey look out there's a bed of spikes to my left I shouldn't drop them that direction. rambo The smaller angles in between seem to disallow the full range of your hips when turning them.

I'd like to hear some more perspective on this as I may not be seeing this clearly. I'd be happy to clarify more if this my explanation is not obvious.


ArteXerxes

Re: Re: Stance shifting for power
Reply #9 Posted at Wed Mar 10 18:55:35 2004 IP68.84.86.140

Okay, I think I understand "Uke" now...that's your opponent right? Had to do a little bit of research glasses


Sorry.


The 45 degrees notion seems to be a pretty solid number, but with stances I believe that maximum power comes in 90 degree changes and increments thereof.


That's entirely possible if you're standing up, but when you're on the ground it's like having 4 legs.

Also throws are unbalancing in nature. If I want to throw someone I really have to be committed to the idea that I will fall down also; throws where you hurl someone to the ground and are left standing over them are extremely rare.


I'd like to hear some more perspective on this as I may not be seeing this clearly. I'd be happy to clarify more if this my explanation is not obvious.


It takes a while to get used to new people and their "new" ideas, especially if all they have are words - and I'm not too good with words. Hopefully you can make the get-together with Tye and I'm sure we could both learn a lot from each other happy

Arte


Dan N

Re: Stance shifting for power
Reply #10 Posted at Wed Mar 10 19:20:06 2004 IP165.91.177.45 Arte, hopefully I can make it this time around. I'd love to cross hands with you; it's amazing how much you can learn that way. I think I've identified a flaw in my thinking here, and it's maybe contributing to my misunderstanding of this conversation. I tend to lump throws and take-downs together. Obviously they are two very different things, maybe if I had thought about it more I would have come to this conclusion. Each of those techniques relies heavliy upon the theft of your foe's balance, but the take-down doesn't necessarily require the potential sacrifice of your own balance. Right? I think I've got it. Go me. Now as far as ground-fighting goes, I am not really qualified to comment on it as I have spent little time analyzing it. But now I've got some angles to play with, so Thanks!


ArteXerxes

Re: Stance shifting for power
Reply #11 Posted at Wed Mar 10 19:51:12 2004 IP68.84.86.140

Arte, hopefully I can make it this time around.

Would be grand happy I'm bringing students too, so don't worry about not knowing a lot of people.

I tend to lump throws and take-downs together. Obviously they are two very different things [...] Each of those techniques relies heavliy upon the theft of your foe's balance, but the take-down doesn't necessarily require the potential sacrifice of your own balance. Right?

Errr, kinda. However, if you're doing any sort of grappling oriented manuever you're, in essence, creating one unit of humanity (the two people cease to be 2 people and become 1 person). This is an idea that Scott Sonnon (judo / sambo person) has really fleshed out and gotten some great results with. When two people begin to grapple, they come to rely on each other for balance - so, if you're doing a takedown on someone then you've accepted some of their balance and are giving up some of your own. As such, all grappling techniques carry an inherent risk of off-balancing; either on-purpose or accidental.

But now I've got some angles to play with, so Thanks!

You're more than welcome, if you do play with them let me know how it goes! happy


Dan N

Re: Stance shifting for power
Reply #12 Posted at Wed Mar 10 20:16:52 2004 IP165.91.177.45 okay, I definitely see the picture now. shocked So let me ask this: What about the take-down using a joint-lock. Let's say an outside wrist throw. When I execute this properly I don't feel like I am sacrificing my balance whatsoever...but wait now that I think about I can see where I do sacrifice my balance. Not at the beginning of the technique, but near the end as my opponent hits the ground. If I want to stay hovering over them, I have to commit some of weight and potentially let my arms be pulled away from my body while they're in flight towards the ground. Very cool...your last comments were really helpful in making a new connection for me. neat...just plain neat


Fire and Rain

Re: Re: Stance shifting for power
Reply #13 Posted at Fri Jun 18 22:51:21 2004 IP24.175.151.195

On Wed Mar 10 19:51:12 2004, ArteXerxes wrote: (read quoted post). . .if you're doing any sort of grappling oriented manuever you're, in essence, creating one unit of humanity (the two people cease to be 2 people and become 1 person). This is an idea that Scott Sonnon (judo / sambo person) has really fleshed out and gotten some great results with. When two people begin to grapple, they come to rely on each other for balance - so, if you're doing a takedown on someone then you've accepted some of their balance and are giving up some of your own. As such, all grappling techniques carry an inherent risk of off-balancing; either on-purpose or accidental.


That's really good stuff.

I wouldn't have been able to say it lucidly until just now, but that's what I was doing to one of my fellow students last night, to great effect.

We were told to work on some basic 'textbook' throws we know and have known for a long time, and the ukes were given full permission to resist as much as possible (drawing the line at striking the tore).

Unlike some of the guys there (who turned into He-man and just poured on the power and locked up their muscles to resist) I found myself often just leaning on my thrower in ways that I knew would steal power from the throw or make it impractical to get the torque or angle that the thrower needed to make the throw work.

I didn't have any idea how to eloquently say that though, and now I do with your description of this new concept. I like it! Thanks!

- Fire and Rain


Ben Garcia

Re: Stance shifting for power
Reply #14 Posted at Thu Jun 24 18:01:36 2004 IP130.160.200.178 Yeah, that explanation really brings home the hilarity of doing techniques with a partner and having your partner say something like, "...you're coming at me all wrong. Do it right!"tongue
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Tye Botting
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