Final Range

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Final Range

Postby Tye Botting » Tue Aug 24, 2004 2:07 pm

From the old boards...

Tye Botting
Administrator

Final Range
Started at Fri Apr 30 15:08:34 2004
Last Modified at Fri Apr 30 15:08:55 2004 by Tye Botting IP204.196.55.102 I know there's a lot of different arts, each with their own preferred range(s), but it occurred to me that most times, even if your fighting range is long, middle, or short/close, the final range to end the threat your opponent poses has to be short/close. Unless, of course, you get in a lucky long-range shot that happens to finish your opponent.

So, even if you're a long-range stylist, it seems to me you have to be able to end things in short/close range in order to get the finishing/powerful strikes (not to mention locks/pins of course).

Thoughts/comments?


njekwa

Re: Final Range
Reply #1 Posted at Fri Apr 30 16:52:36 2004 IP165.91.166.182 sounds rigth to me
and then throw in some tai-chi

j/k...not really
it does seem that there are better chances to finish off an opponent in closer range.......plus sticking to an opponent is fun


Dan S

Re: Final Range
Reply #2 Posted at Sat May 1 01:48:08 2004
Last Modified at Sat May 1 01:50:08 2004 by Dan S IP204.210.96.119 A lot of that depends on the definition of "end". If it's control or submission, close range seems like the way to go. If it's have them unconsious, I could be persuaded either way (enough good long range stuff and you wouldn't need to be "lucky".) If it's end the confrontation with them not wanting to play anymore (injury to hand, foot, knee) I would like the long range stuff (I'd also rather have a spear than a knife.)

It's a lot harder to convince somebody a controlled long range shot could have been really bad for them. Stuff like locks or arm bars or knocking the wind out of somebody are a lot easier to do close range. Breaking an ankle, wrist or knee with a long range attack tends to be considered much more impolite than a throw or an elbow to the solar plexus.


Michael H

Re: Final Range
Reply #3 Posted at Sun May 2 17:37:30 2004 IP69.5.200.70 As a long-range practitioner, I can say that my most desired attacks/defenses are from the outside. If the opponent closes the distance, my most effective counters, etc. are my elbows and knees. If I look to my forms, as modern arnis has help me to do, my counters may take the shape of throws, take downs, locks, etc. I have seen some very effective ring fights in which the practitioners are using feet and hands for striking attacks. These fellows are very effective in putting people on the canvas with just feet and hands. Of course, these are fights with rules. On the street, there are no rules. There has been many a story about long-range practitioners winning on the streets. There have been a few whispered stories about long-range practitioners having their butts being used to wipe the streets. I man must know his limitations. A good fight will probably make him very aware of those limitations.


Michael H

Re: Final Range
Reply #4 Posted at Sun May 2 17:42:12 2004 IP69.5.200.70 Oh, oh...then there are the stories from arnistadors in the Philippines who started in karate, had there butts handed to them on the streets by arnis people, changed over to arnis, and proceeded to kick much butt of their on. A man must know his limitations.


Chester

Final Range - close is good!
Reply #5 Posted at Sun May 2 19:45:40 2004 IP24.126.159.184 Haha I love those stories. But I agree with Tye that finishing a fight (especially quickly) tends to move the fight towards the close range.

And since njekwa brings up taiji, it's interesting to note that taiji has quite an emphasis on close-range techniques.

The close range offers several advantages:

In offense, we all know the effectiveness of elbows, knees, and throws. In close also allows one to use shoulder, head and back strikes that are quite damaging.

In defense, being close allows you to restrict your opponents movements. After the rise & development of iron techniques (palm, finger, fist, leg), many styles developed in fighting control techniques (traps, pushhands, etc) to defend against these iron techniques that you don't want to just block. Also, as one ages and one's speed/reflexes slows, it becomes more and more difficult to play the long range fight against younger faster opponents. Short range sensitivity and control evens out these odds.

Things are of course different if you are wielding weapons (the saying goes "one inch longer is one inch stronger), but in empty hand fighting even many long/northern styles use a lot of in fighting, such as mantis' love for elbows knees & shoulder strikes and shaolin's repertoire of throws.


Dan S

Re: Final Range
Reply #6 Posted at Mon May 3 10:22:27 2004 IP204.210.96.119 I know my Tai Chi is rusty and weak, but from what I remember, there were a lot of things that ended with full extention motions with the arms (which felt long range to me.)

I may also not be talking about the same ranges (I know some of the folks I train with feel my medium range is pretty close.) My thoughts were close = throw, trap, elbow close, punch short (contact made before elbow passes the plane of the body); medim = knee, end of elbow range, punches that make contact with some bend still in the arm; long = kick, full extention punches maybe with a stance shift.

Are the sorts of definitions here
http://www.yangsandover.com/articles.sh ... ngfutheory

more what everybody else is considering? (In which case, long range sort of goes to short range for any attack that lands.)


Chester

Re: Final Range
Reply #7 Posted at Mon May 3 18:14:06 2004 IP24.126.159.184 Hi Dan,

I was thinking along your lines of what ranges are. I didn't think anyone was talking about finishing fights from the too far to hit each other range. happy

As for taiji it does indeed have tons of close range fighting in it. Many of the moves have uses as shoulder/back/elbow strikes and throws. Of the eight powers of taiji, two are "elbow" and "leaning".


Ben Garcia

Re: Final Range
Reply #8 Posted at Mon May 3 21:51:04 2004 IP130.160.200.178 I would think that in a real fight, it takes one or a few good strikes to finish someone off or discourage them from further aggression. It depends on a person's skill as to which range would be most deadly to a foe. I think the majority of fights end up at close ranges, though. It seems most or all martial arts systems have close and medium range tactics, while not all have the same variety in long-range tactics as others.

As for tai chi, that's applicable to almost any situation, is it not? If you've got power generation and balance down, you can do almost anything from any range. Feel the chi!!!

Of course, if you can throw balls of chi with your dan tien, than all bets are off! tongue


njekwa

Re: Final Range
Reply #9 Posted at Tue May 4 15:49:55 2004 IP165.91.166.75 good usage of the word foe....kudos to you
and i must state again that tai chi is great!!


Dan N

Re: Final Range
Reply #10 Posted at Wed May 5 13:54:31 2004
Last Modified at Wed May 5 13:56:10 2004 by Dan N IP165.91.177.45 I think I'm going to have to agree with Sifu Botting on this one. Although I do know from experience that Sifu Dan S. (aka "evil Dan") is pretty effective from a long range. I certainly would try and get in closer against him.

My opinion here deals not with what I do, but with what my opponent does. I am personally more reactive to people than aggressive. I know(having been beaten up many times as a kid) that at least 95% of fights end up on the ground because most people just rush you. So really one can't avoid close range to finish a fight because one usually doesn't get that choice. So while it is great to have nice long range stuff, I think the real effective material is in ground-fighting...


ArteXerxes

Re: Final Range
Reply #11 Posted at Thu May 6 16:43:10 2004 IP68.84.86.140 One of the things I like about close range fighting is that it's honest. It's honest with me about my skills and it's honest with my opponent abouth their skills. If I can apply a submission to someone there is no debate about who would have won the fight - because we both know who would have won.

Add in strikes with the sparring (of any range, but especially grappling range) and it does get a little fuzzier ("would that shot have knocked me out if he wasn't wearing 4 oz of padding on his hands?") but it's still very honest.

If you watch the early NHB events (UFC, IFC, etc.) you'll see bareknuckle fighting where one guy pounds another guy for a seeming eternity and is unable to finish the fight. Blood is pouring out of both fighters, both hands are a cut-up, bloody mess, but the fight still continues. This has lead me to believe that there is a much greater success ratio for ending fights with submissions. However, in civil society probably only chokes would be viable submissions (not a good idea to dislocate someone's hip, then wrench their shoulder out of socket).

The last option is neither submission or strike, it is a pin. Fights don't last 30 min (like in the movies or in MMA events), fights are pretty quick and people like to get involved relatively soon. So, take the fight to the ground and pin someone there - no beating on them, no choking them, no breaking anything on them; just nice immobilization.

Arte


Fire and Rain

Re: Final Range
Reply #12 Posted at Sat Jun 19 15:39:41 2004 IP24.175.151.195 Addressing the original topic:

It occurs to me that I'm not really sure what my natural range is anymore. I don't think it's short yet, but I know it's not long. I'm just not comfortable as much out there. But once I get inside of course, I haven't got the skill to really apply what I prefer. Sad but true.

Besides the point.

Anyway, I'm going to basically assume that my natural range is a KSW derived medium with smatterings of long (mostly brought on by CLF probably) and smatterings of short ranges (brought on, I think, by a bit of the KSW, but mostly by some of the close range CLF and the Pekiti Tirsia).

In any case, it occurs to me that when I have been more successful in playfighting and sparring engagements against untrained opponents it has been in the middle and close ranges (elbows and jaw locks, knees to the chest, those sorts of things).

However, when I think to the 'cleanest' successes I've had against trained opponents, it was in a transition between ranges. Generally I managed to move through the middle range, to short, and back to long, while performing a takedown or setup move that allowed me a clean 'victory point'.

The example that comes to mind first is sparring with a fellow student a couple of years ago. We closed the range and he wound up moving past me on my left side with his right foot forward but gave me access to his left arm and shoulder. I got us hip to hip and pulled him back in a fairly clean takedown which left him at my feet with an opportunity to just stomp on him for a while. The takedown in question though, moves from a close range to a distant range pretty quickly, and with this topic in mind, it got me thinking.

Perhaps there are some fighters who must use the transitions between ranges (by either them or their opponents) to best capitalize on their abilities?

- Fire and Rain


Richard Rance

Re: Re: Final Range
Reply #13 Posted at Sun Jun 20 21:42:20 2004 IP67.10.172.148

On Sat Jun 19 15:39:41 2004, Fire and Rain wrote: (read quoted post)Addressing the original topic:


Perhaps there are some fighters who must use the transitions between ranges (by either them or their opponents) to best capitalize on their abilities?



I agree. For instance, Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu people will use the clinch to bypass their weak range(free movement range)on their way to the ground. For those not versed in BJJ, they believe in only three ranges:
1)free movement-where any type of striking takes place and you don't have a hold on your opponent.
2)clinch-where you have any type of hold on your opponent that restricts his movement.
3)ground-where you have taken your opponent off his feet to the ground, or one knee.


Ben Garcia

Re: Final Range
Reply #14 Posted at Thu Jun 24 18:25:12 2004 IP130.160.200.178 Interesting point! Transitions between ranges offer a moment of weakness to one or the other fighter. I've been doing a lot of reading and looking at pa kua, and it seems to be doing just this. For instance, there are many moves in the book I've been studying primarily that work one an oppenents reactions. A lot of moves start with a circular block and grab routine, then as the opponent pulls back in reaction to the grab, another movement is employed where the grabber goes along with his opponent's shrinking movement, thereby adding to the force with which the opponent is thrown or struck. I guess many MA's are like this at their heart.

Bringng yopur opponent in close and knowing they want to fall back to medium or long range can give one a huge edge in a match. I guess it's sort of like baiting, in a way.


Ben Garcia

Re: Final Range
Reply #15 Posted at Thu Jun 24 18:26:24 2004 IP130.160.200.178 Please excuse my horrendous typing.


Richard Rance

Re: Re: Final Range
Reply #16 Posted at Thu Jun 24 23:25:42 2004 IP67.10.175.88

On Thu Jun 24 18:25:12 2004, Ben Garcia wrote: (read quoted post) Transitions between ranges offer a moment of weakness to one or the other fighter...
Bringng yopur opponent in close and knowing they want to fall back to medium or long range can give one a huge edge in a match. I guess it's sort of like baiting, in a way.


Right on. If you go back and watch the first three U.F.C.'s it will become apparent that very few of the contestants practice ground fighting(except the BJJ guys) and all of these guys could not keep the fights in their chosen ranges. However, a look at the last couple of U.F.C.'s will reveal a field of competitors that are more savy to the ground game and don't get 'pushed around.' These Kick-Boxers, Karate and Kung-Fu men use their knowledge of grappling not to fight like grapplers-but to defend against them, get out of close-range, and keep the fight where they want it(that is only if they don't actually prefer close range). So, it works both ways-the striker getting beat by the grappler who entered into the clinch range, and the striker working his way out of clinch range to get back to a position that is not as good for the grappler.
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