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Postby barr » Fri Aug 05, 2005 10:27 pm

On George Dillman? I haven't seen him live or anything, and have always been very sceptical of his 'talents'.

Having said that, I am a strong believer in the use of Chi and the like, so it makes me wonder.

Just thought I would throw it out there.

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Postby Tye Botting » Fri Aug 05, 2005 10:35 pm

I went to a Dragon Society Int'l training camp years ago, and while it was interesting and fun, it wasn't as miraculous as one is led to believe. I'll dig up my review and post it here in a bit...
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Postby Tye Botting » Fri Aug 05, 2005 10:37 pm

Here's the text of the message I posted on the kyusho-jitsu email discussion list I used to frequent back in the day. I believe the year was somewhere around 1995 plus or minus a couple of years...

I also attended the DSI National Convention in Houston recently, along
with a kung fu and Modern Arnis student of mine, a Modern Arnis student, and
two other guys. We were looking forward to putting faces to some of the
net-people we'd met, both here and on the kungfu list. It was interesting, to
say the least. ;-) Actually, of all the net-people we met, Michael Davis had
to take the cake for being least like his net-persona. ;-) He was nothing
like what I expected. Unfortunately, I didn't get to cross hands with him
much, but he seemed like good enough people.

In any case, the seminar was quite interesting. Dan Hydrick's session
on Modern Arnis and tuite was good, basic stuff. I liked the fact he
emphasized how multitudinous things can come off of single sinawali. There's a
lot there, and too many people forget that. Of course, there's a lot to the
whole art, which is why I love it in addition to my kung fu. Not an impressive
section due to everyone's relative inexperience w/ Modern Arnis, but good,
solid stuff nonetheless.

The next morning, I got to see GM Muncy's session on basic tuite. To
me, it was basically qinna, although specifying which points were hit and why
was an added bonus for most, I'm sure. Good basic stuff again.

After that, Mike Tucker did a session on the use of leg points,
including showing some nifty video footage of leg strikes and mis-strikes in
action. The Gumby tape rules! ;-) First, discussed hooking Sp-6 (San yin
chiao) from the ground and then striking down into Bl-55 (Ho yang) or Bl-56
(Cheng chin) to take them down effortlessly. Worked quite well. Some people
found it easier to use K-7 and/or K-8, which also worked. I also added a quick
tap with my ankle-bone to S-42, for added fun sometimes. And, even if
the pressure points weren't sufficient in and of themselves, the physiology was
such that mechanically they'd go down anyway. Next, we worked on a technique
where again Sp-6 (San yin chiao) was used to set up the strike; this time a
combination upward blade-edge side kick to GB-34 and S-36. S-36 seemed to be
the real activator in that, but that could be just me, since I barely felt
either. Another technique was done standing up, while the opponent was on the
ground; grind across Sp-6 (San yin chiao) with the heel while stepping and
then step with the other heel to grind across a point that looked to be in
between Sp-10 and Sp-11, but still on the Spleen meridian. Again, seemed to
work quite well.

Then came Mr. Mooney's section on LKJ, which I'll cover in another
post. I was also put in the position of witness, to check out whether or not
he was legit. Not that I asked for it, eh, Michael? ;-) More in another

Next, Ray Fisher covered some basic qigong and packing, along with some
emitted qi exercises to do with yourself. He covered the 5-element constructive
cycle with the 5 healing sounds, along with colors and breathing.

Then we were treated to Mr. McMains' portion of the seminar. He made a
ton of good points which every good martial artist should know. Some
applications to standard forms, but the best part was his lecture on details,
details, details. I hope everyone paid attention. It was the kind of stuff I
keep trying to drum into peoples' heads time after time because it's so
important. People can't find a forest if they don't know what a tree looks

Finally, Mr. Moneymaker finished up with arm knockout setups and
points. The first one was to set up a strike to LI-10 (Shou san li) using L-6
(Kung tsui) and/or L-7 (Lieh Chueh) and H-7 (Shen men) in a grasping mode to
expose and stretch LI-10. This didn't work on me, even though several people
(Moneymaker, McMains, Cadle, McDaniels, Hydrick and others) tried. I know how I
turned it off, but I couldn't help it. Kinda like blinking an eye when
something comes at it; a natural reflex. I'm quite confident I could teach
most anyone to turn off any arm and even body points. Neck and legs are a bit
more problematic, but can be done as well. I missed most of the other
techniques that Mr. Moneymaker tried, as so many people wanted to try getting
my LI-10 that I was quite busy. Still, many of them dealth with LI-10, though
also some dealt with Sp-21 and GB-25, if I remember correctly.

After that, I was chatting w/ Mr. Mooney and watching the rest of the
techniques and their effect on poor Mr. Selby (who I already knew from his
hosting of Prof. Presas many times), who seemed especially susceptible,
and also went in the other room to see some of his qinna and even a bit of
push-hands. Good stuff. Too bad I'm not a push-hands guy, but at least the
qinna was quite fun.

My kung fu student was also able to turn off his body points and arm
points for these techniques. But perhaps he'll talk more about that himself,
as he's also a member of this list. Abel?

Lastly, a few were wondering about delayed effects what with all the
attempts at my LI-10; well, I'm happy to report nada. No headaches or nausea
the next day. No bruise. Nothing. Same with Abel. It is useful to note here
that arm pressure points used to work on both me and Abel, but that was a long
time ago. ;-)

Overall, the seminar was good, solid, basic stuff. The kind of stuff
you should already know, but if you didn't it'd be easy to retain it and build
upon it in the future, no matter what your art or experience level. I was
surprised that more of the basic 5-element theory wasn't covered, including
more mention of which meridians are associated with which element, but I guess
people can get that from other sources, and if you weren't familiar with it, it
could have been too much to retain from only a day and a half of the material.

Thanks everyone for having me and putting up with us outtatowners...

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Re: Thoughts???

Postby Mike Casto » Sat Aug 06, 2005 4:05 pm

barr wrote:On George Dillman? I haven't seen him live or anything, and have always been very sceptical of his 'talents'.

Having said that, I am a strong believer in the use of Chi and the like, so it makes me wonder.

Just thought I would throw it out there.


This will just basically reinforce what Tye said.

I haven't personally met or trained with Dillman but one of my instructors has spent a lot of time with him. I've seen a fair amount of Dillman material from various places and seen Dillman on video.

I think Dillman has some really good stuff to offer. I think he has found some info that's been somewhat lost in the Japanese/Okinawan arts for a while.

I also think, though, that there's a lot of hype about Dillman and what he does. And there're a lot of things that make you go "hmm."

Things like no touch knockouts and stopping an attacker with a shout. All looks good on paper and it would be really cool if it were true. I've seen demos but never had anyone willing to try it on me. Also, in the demos, there's a fair amount of preparation that goes on.

Now, if these types of things can be demonstrated to me using myself and a wide variety of other people as dummies (people who aren't already "true believers") and it works on 80 - 90% of the subjects then I'd think it was worth my time to pursue it because the preparation time can almost certainly be reduced with practice. However, I have yet to be convinced.

The pressure point stuff, though, has a lot of merit. But I think there's also some non-essentials and hype thrown into that, too.

I once saw a man - a high ranking guy under Dillman - do a takedown. Now, I'm not knocking this guy. He's good. And he definitely has some good knowledge and skill. But he did this take down by shearing the uke's ankle. The guy said that the uke went down because of the pressure points struck in the ankle area. I don't doubt there are pressure points there. And I don't doubt that they may have helped with the takedown (i.e.: made it easier to buckle the ankle). But I also *know* for a fact that if I shear someone's ankle, they're going to at least stumble and probably go down through simple physics that have nothing to do with pressure points.

So while I know the pressure point material has merit. I think some people put too much emphasis on it. They try to use it to explain everything.

Alertness and courage are life's shield. -- Filipino Proverb
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Postby Shaolin Bushido » Mon Aug 08, 2005 10:18 am

Dillman learned most of his kyusho jitsu form Obata, right? Obata is considered legitimate, right? Filipino MA, JKD, Muay Thai, BJJ, Kyokushin Karate, Boxing
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