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left hand?

PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 8:42 pm
by Tye Botting
From the old forums...

Tye Botting
Administrator

Left hand?
Started at Sat Mar 6 01:44:46 2004 IP66.157.164.126 I think it's often unfortunately the case that many arnisadors/eskrimadors neglect their "off" hand, i.e. if they're right-handed, they won't work their techniques with their left hand and vice-versa. I say unfortunately because many times working your off hand exposes weaknesses in you technique and your understanding. We try to work the off hand on both armed and unarmed techniques. This sometimes reveals some very effective insights into how a particular technique can be worked with either hand versus either technique. Oftimes it seems that if you're using the opposite hand as your opponent you inherently have the advantage, assuming you've practiced to take advantage. Neat stuff.

Anyway, I was wondering if others do this, and specifically what kinds of things you've observed via this training if you have. Anyone care to share?


Michael H

Re: Left hand?
Reply #1 Posted at Sat Mar 6 20:55:14 2004 IP69.5.200.201 I agree that the off hand is very important. Unbalancing your oppnent involves physical as well as psychological elements. Many people are confused by the passing of the cane and the associated changing of the live hand. Often, thay cannot follow the cane when it is passed, then they are suprised by a new element, the new live hand. The effects are both physical and psychological. Another important aspect is choosing the moment to pass the cane. The more subtle the pass, the greater the psychological unbalancing. Sieze the moment.


Dan N

Re: Left hand?
Reply #2 Posted at Mon Mar 8 15:03:22 2004 IP165.91.177.45 I concur. carpe diem, Hume! But I'm pretty sure you're not talking about your life philosophy...

Training the off-hand is definitely difficult, but very necessary. We were just talking about this last night at Arnis. There are certain techniques that my live hand executes beautifully, but when I switch the other hand is clumsy and stiff. I think it takes a certain level of dedication to teach yourself to switch. I always think of the Princess Bride when I think of the off hand. The Man in Black and Montayo are fighting a duel when both start smiling...each admitting to other that they are not lefties, but righties. Everyone should be that good...in theory.

Are there any good drills that help to teach your "other side" the same fluidity and movement that your good side knows? (Beyond just switching hands of course)


ArteXerxes

Re: Left hand?
Reply #3 Posted at Mon Mar 8 19:03:02 2004 IP68.84.86.140 >>> Are there any good drills that help to teach your "other side" the same fluidity and movement that your good side knows? (Beyond just switching hands of course) <<<

In my school, when we want to get better at a technique we isolate the technique as best as we can and then do repetitions over and over and over and over again. So, for instance, if we wanted to get better at Tai Otoshi (a Judo throw), we'd isolate the footwork, the handwork, the body position, the hip movement, the arm movement, the head position, the timing, and the balance of the throw - each isolated movement is done 10 times, then we run through each of the movements 1 time to refresh the body's memory, then the whole of the technique is done 10 times. This really helps build an ingrained sense of what should be done and when it should be done.

I can easily see this same drill working for any art. 10 times with just the footwork, 10 times with just the handwork, 10 times with just the hip movement, etc. Focus completely on the specific area as you go through the movements.

One other one, which I'm sure you guys do is hubud (aka "Hubud y Lubud" - not sure of the spelling on Lubud; it's been a long time happy. It's a back-and-forth reciprocal drill where the exact same technique is done by both people, only they're alternating doing the techniques. It should be seemless flowing back and forth with ease. A slightly more advanced version of this is a drill we called chase-the-rabbit, in which the advanced student does a technique and the junior student is supposed to respond with the same technique when it's his/her turn to do the technique.

Phew! Sorry about all the rambling. wink

Arte


Dan N

Re: Left hand?
Reply #4 Posted at Mon Mar 8 19:47:31 2004 IP165.91.177.45 Arte, Nice break down! I will definitely put that to use. It's always nice to hear how material is passed on differently and your approach is one of the better ones. Too often I see a move or series of movement just shown to a student; very rarely does one see the building of the entire movement from the ground up. It has so many advantages: less confusing to the student, allows for more elaboration on the why, and I think it teaches a student to look at a basic element that is so often overlooked - footwork. With that said, thanks again. If you have any more teaching insight, I am all ears...


Michael H

Re: Left hand?
Reply #5 Posted at Mon Mar 8 20:41:20 2004 IP128.194.207.10 There is no left hand!! That being said, in MA, we practice a technique over and over and.... I think 10 times is a good number of reps to start with, but we tend to practice a drill, such as trapping hands, or the 1,2 drill (a.k.a., empty-hand tapi-tapi), or de cadena, or the sinawali boxing drill, or the flow drill (a.k.a., dance or pain; an infinite series of locks, throws, hold, take-downs) and other knife and cane drills with no concern for how many reps, but for whether we are starting to feel comfortable with the drill, regardless of the hand being used. Then we start to throw in locks, take-downs, hold, etc.; just setting them up and not yet fully executing the technique. Once we start to feel comfortable with the above, we start a give and take of a variety of techniques from lower body and upper body throws, as well as the arm, neck, hand, etc. throws, locks, etc. The result of this exhaustive repetition is that the execution of a technique is not based upon which hand is stronger, but on the basis of which hand is in position. So, my point is that there is no left hand, just the hand (or foot) in position for execution of the technique. The same can be said for our cane techniques, especially during cane tapi-tapi (cane sparring). There is no left hand. There is only the live hand and the hand holding the cane. Go with the flow (Professor Presas).


Dan N

Re: Left hand?
Reply #6 Posted at Mon Mar 8 22:09:58 2004 IP165.91.177.45 There is no sthingy...there is no sthingy...do I smell a little bit of dialogue plagiarism here...

Nice insight Dr. Hume! I always knew there was a method to your madness...now if I could just get this sthingy to bend...


Michael H

Re: Left hand?
Reply #7 Posted at Tue Mar 9 01:45:51 2004 IP69.5.201.58 Hey, Dr. Tye, I'm just trying to get plugged back into the system. There is only madness and confusion out here and I sure would like a good steak about now.

I must say that there was no attempt to dispute the previous post. I was merely driving home the point that repetition dissolves the need for distinctions between the hands. Tye, I know you have had a sense of no-handedness while playing tapi-tapi (empty-hand and cane) or in empty-hand applications.

Hey, has anybody seen my outlet?


Tye Botting
Administrator

Re: Left hand?
Reply #8 Posted at Tue Mar 9 05:57:21 2004 IP66.157.164.126 Actually, I was fine with what you wrote, my friend. I thought it fit with what I initially wrote, but had some added info and thoughts - which was good.

'Course this most recent post is something else - I almost couldn't parse it for some reason. You're not smoking those crawdads again, are ya? wink


Michael H

Re: Left hand?
Reply #9 Posted at Tue Mar 9 12:56:33 2004 IP128.194.207.10 Tye, sorry about the matrix references. I forgot you are still waiting for the VHF versions to come out before you can see them. cheesy

No, I was just trying to clean up my act and indicate that I was not attempting to step on anyone's toes with my post concerning repetition.

Anyway...while practicing tapi's, etc., often I have marveled at how the left hand eventually starts to feel comfortable in either role; live hand or cane hand. It appears that training both sides of the body, with equal adeptness, is built into MA.

That, being said, training both sides of the body in most martial arts is built into the art. I know that my TKD punching or striking hand is equally comfortable on either side. I do favor my right kicking side, however, my left side isn't too far behind and I do prefer to spar with my left side forward just to throw other people off their game.


Dan N

Re: Left hand?
Reply #10 Posted at Tue Mar 9 20:11:17 2004 IP165.91.177.45 mmmm....crawdads. grin Forget VHF Hume, I'm waiting for the Broadway production of the Matrix! If Keanu Reeves vocal talents rival his acting...I'm buying out the theatre! wink

Anyway, the training of both sides is built into martial arts for the most part...(don't bite my head off for this)...until you get to weapons. The majority of forms and techniques using single-handed weapons seem to be right-hand dominated. Now, I do understand that it is the practitioner's responsibility to train using both sides, so I am merely making an observation here. With that said I can do nothing but concur that repetition is the key to training the off-hand...as well as the on-hand.

Any more thoughts on this?


ArteXerxes

Re: Left hand?
Reply #11 Posted at Tue Mar 9 23:06:24 2004 IP68.84.86.140 An interesting thought, I'm not sure how many of you have studied Serrada style eskrima (either Cabales Serrada or Inayan Serrada), but left handed techniques in those styles are not just simple hand switches but completely different techniques many times. One of my initial instructors was left handed and his counters were often wildly different than my counters.

Anyone else had any experience with problems like this or this exact problem?

Arte


Tye Botting
Administrator

Re: Left hand?
Reply #12 Posted at Wed Mar 10 00:34:16 2004 IP66.157.164.126 Yep. The left-handed stuff can either be markedly different or simply mirrored; largely it depends on what it's versus. Obviously, LvsL will generally be mirrored RvsR stuff, but LvsR and RvsL will by their very nature include some similar material and some markedly different material. Different hinges and angles, dontcha know.

You have a good point in emphasizing this (I don't think I made myself clear in the first post), and it's something that often takes awhile to get used to if you don't already do it - it's like working your techniques versus a whole different beast.

My first real awakening to this was working one-on-one with Dr. Randi Schea in his yard with the Professor on hand. Until that time, I had simply been experimenting with what amounted to a L-hand version of the R-hand technique. Dr. Schea showed and worked with me on a lot of old LvsR stuff and RvsL and that was the first time I really saw the markedly different (and sometimes downright astoundingly simple, effective, and just plain nifty) in action. 'Course, had I been thinking more about it, I should have realized that would of course be the case. Just another 'duh!' wink


Dan N

Re: Left hand?
Reply #13 Posted at Wed Mar 10 14:44:14 2004 IP165.91.177.45 So why are the two sides so different? Any historical perspective on this?

And does it mean one is a poor martial artist if they are more adept with one side than the other? (not being controversial - really interested in what people think about this)


ArteXerxes

Re: Left hand?
Reply #14 Posted at Wed Mar 10 17:21:06 2004 IP68.84.86.140 IMO, I think that learning one sided defenses makes perfect sense if you're learning to defend yourself. You'll learn how to fight as best you can with your strongest side and sure you'll practice sometimes against left handed people, more often than not you'll only face other right handed people.

This makes all sorts of sense if you don't have all day to train, you have to go work in the fields, build your house / village, spend time with family and friends, and work training to defend your life somewhere in there. Most FMA masters weren't samurai, they couldn't devote their whole lives to the mastery of combat - combat was just another part of their lives.

Just my 2 cents though wink

Arte


Michael H

Re: Left hand?
Reply #15 Posted at Wed Mar 10 19:02:59 2004 IP128.194.207.10 I think one main reason why there is an apparent diffrence in some of the right and left hand techniques in Professor Presas' system is that the Professor was left handed. It was a great surprise for some of us to learn this, since most of the time the Professor demonstrated techniques with his right hand. Mind you that this is only speculation, but...it is likely that the Professor was taught certain right handed techniques and developed left-handed techniques later. That being said, a center lock or compressed elbow is the same whether it is executed from the right or left side. A figure or abanico (arbanico in Tye lingo tongue) cane strike or a double sinawali is the same regardless of the hand delivering the strike.