X-over Detraction of Benefit

For discussions of Remy Presas' Modern Arnis and other Filipino martial arts.

X-over Detraction of Benefit

Postby Tye Botting » Wed Aug 25, 2004 8:58 pm

From the old forums...

Michael H.

X-over Detraction or Benefit
Started at Mon Mar 22 19:38:17 2004 IP128.194.207.17 I was wondering if others out there, who practice another martial art in addition to modern arnis (MA), were seeing detractions or benefits in that other art as a result of influences of MA? Initially, I was gaining a better understanding of applications for movements in the forms of my primary art as a result of intruction in MA applications. Additionally, I was becoming aware of ways to combine the two. That combination was not a hybrid art, but I was recognizing instances when I could inject a technique from one art into a sequence of the other. One detraction I have noticed is my asking the question why kick when you can WHACK? tongue


Tye Botting
Administrator

Re: X-over Detraction or Benefit
Reply #1 Posted at Wed Mar 24 02:30:51 2004 IP65.0.42.38 C'mon folks - this is a good thoughtful question. Instead of me chiming in right away, I want to give some of you a chance to resond first...


Dan N

Re: X-over Detraction or Benefit
Reply #2 Posted at Thu Mar 25 14:51:14 2004 IP165.91.177.45 Well I know that I'm already a little jaded when it comes to this subject; they say you tend to emmulate your teachers, so I tend to see all of it in the same light. Still...

I find that modern arnis tends to provide the analysis that one isn't used to seeing in conventional martial arts. Again let me qualify that I have had amazing instruction in both areas, so my view is going to be a little skewed. But with no discredit to Tye, in MA we spend more time looking at the applications of a given move, where in KF we tend to spend a lot of time just trying to get the move right(angles, height, stance, etc..). So, the analytical side of arnis has been of tremendous benefit to my analysis of kung fu. Movement in arnis at many times is very clear in its intent, KF isn't.

Now when it comes to detraction...I don't really see it in my studies. What I do try and see is that there are multiple interpretations for everything...leading to some very complicated pictures, but some very neat results. Arnis doesn't really have kicking built into its structure, but I have always viewed kicking as more tactical than truly offensive(but I'm not super quick with my kicks). A kick makes for a great distraction(now they're not thinking about the stick coming at their ribs), a great deflection, and a great way to get close to your opponent(ie a low kick to the ankle/knee where instead of retracting you step through) which lends itself to throws and unbalancing.

I think that everything I need to know is encompassed in both styles, MA just is a little more clear at times. I am pretty sure that if I ever had to use what I have learned, I would really on KF for my structure and power and MA for my response to my opponent.


Ed Kwan
Guest

Re: X-over Detraction or Benefit
Reply #3 Posted at Wed Mar 31 16:41:29 2004 IP207.235.15.24 Hello Dr. Hume,
How are you ? I think any kind of cross over is good for martial art training, not just Modern Arnis. However, I would much prefer attaining certain level from one art before migrating to another. I am sure you already experienced at a higher level, moves from one style are very similar to others. A well trained martial artist should be able to combine all the techniques they know at any given situation. For a beginner, training multiple styles at the same time may cause confusion.


Michael H

Re: X-over Detraction or Benefit
Reply #4 Posted at Thu Apr 1 18:34:55 2004 IP128.194.207.17 Ed, how are you? It is good to share a page with you. Often, I think you offer excellent insights into MA applications. I agree with your advice concerning not X-over too soon. I think most students should wait until they are black belt level before X-training, as you indicated, reduce confusion. Besides, the X-over art would be that much easier to learn, since your primary art should have established good ground rules that are embedded in most MA's. Often, grand masters have had experience and hold black belts in several styles.


Tye Botting
Administrator

Re: X-over Detraction or Benefit
Reply #5 Posted at Thu Apr 1 19:52:07 2004 IP199.184.208.111 Yep, Professor Presas was a good example of that last point, Dr. Hume. Others as well.

It's kinda like learning languages in this respect. It's a proven fact that the more languages you know, the easier it is to learn additional languages. But you wouldn't want to learn languages simultaneously - way too confusing!


Chris Ball

X-over Analytics and all that
Reply #6 Posted at Sun Apr 11 21:42:46 2004 IP69.0.98.143 Sometimes I think we are more analytical than most. "We" being me, Tye, Dan and Doc Hume. A bunch of academics who like to analyze things, including martial arts. Bryan-CS was the perfect place for me martial arts-wise. We analyzed every more, encouraging me to go back and analyze all my old Karate moves. I'm still benefiting from the X-over. But, I don't know that the benefits would have been as strong had I been studying elsewhere. (Not that other martial artists don't analyze, just that I think a bunch of academics are more prone to.)

As for when to X-over, I think, some X-over occurs constantly in the sense that "what works, works" or what-have-you. To get my black belt in Karate, we had to learn enough Ju-jitsu to earn about a green belt (I know, because many of us went and tested for green & red belts too). That's probably true of many TKD and Karate practitioners. We need basic throws and joint locks. I'd bet my last dollar that Tye's KF students are better versed in Quin Na than most others studying under other instructors teaching the same art. No loss though.

Taking X-over to the next level, I think Tye and Doc H are right on. Like learning a second language, one realizes there are certain fundamental underlying principles behind the seemingly unrelated martial arts. To really pick up on that a solid foundation in one language (Martial Art) first helps. Astute practitioners might be able to do 2 simultaneously (Dan always impressed me in that regard). He actually seems to pick up the fundamental stucture first and views each as an particular application (sort of a Platonic approach).

To finish with the language-MartialArt (MA) parrallel, people do have dominant languages. At least personally, I have a dominant MA, I think. It is switching. It used to be Karate, but it has become Modern Arnis with kicks. My wife's dominant language has become English since we've lived in the US and she has trouble with "words (or the right expressions) coming more slowly" in her mother tongue sometimes. I can't imagine taking "flow" back out. One shouldn't. What works, works.


Chris Ball

If I were attacked, I'd...
Reply #7 Posted at Sun Apr 11 21:52:15 2004 IP69.0.98.143 One often hears "If I were attacked, I'd use KF or Karate or TKD or..." Like Dan's comment that he'd use MA for response and KF for posture. I understand that and am sure it's true. This isn't a criticism, but something always eats at the back of my mind when I hear that.

If I were attacked on the street today, I just pray I would do something. All my training is (for fun, actually) to get my body ready so that I will react instead of just stand there and wet myself. If someone attacked me today, I would probably later tell "he came at me and I just did something... I'm not sure what, but I remember hitting him in the head, then he grabbed me and I kneed him in the ribs, then kicked him in the head when he fell... Then I just ran." If you've ever been in a real situation or a close call, your heart races and adrenaline pumps, clouding your mind. We can dream that we'd be calm enough and in full control of our faculties to use this style or that. It is also most surely good to think through such scenarios.

Nevetheless, I'm always amazed that the immediate response of a martial arts beginner is often completely unexpected. It may be wrong, bad form, etc. But the main point is, it's not always what you expect them to do. This should tell us that the average street thug will probably do something totally unexpected.

Hope this is taken in the right light. It is a reminder for us to always over estimate our opponents and underestimate our abilities lest we become complacent in our training.


ArteXerxes

Re: X-over Detraction or Benefit
Reply #8 Posted at Wed Apr 14 17:35:49 2004 IP68.84.86.140 I don't think that learning another martial art is like learning another language - at least not in the "I know how to speak English, but have no idea how to speak Tagalog" sense of language. If there is a difference, the difference is between "I speak Southern American English, but I could probably fake my way through Welsh English."

This is of course if the basis of the martial art is actual, practical fighting skills and not just being aesthetically pleasing.

In the movie "My Fair Lady" the professor takes a student, so that he can teach her how to speak proper english - they were both saying the same words, they were just worlds apart in how to go about saying them. There's should only be 1 language in martial arts - and that should be fighting; we all just want to place emphasis on different letters, different words, and different phrases.

In Tennessee, I might say, "Hey, ya'll want a coke?", in Brooklyn someone might say, "Hey, youz guyz want a pop?" Now, carry that over to fighting, in Judo was have O Soto Gari, in Silat there's a throw called a Puter throw - they look similar, they accomplish the same thing, but the emphasis is different, the approach is different, and tools used are different. But they're not so different as I would have no idea how to do Puter without a Silat teacher.

Can you cross-train in two arts at the same time? Sure, though you'll never do one art or the other, you'll always do a synthesis of the two arts. Is this a bad thing? Not in my mind I don't think. If my goal was to keep my art "pure" then maybe it would, but if my goal is functional students then maybe.

I'm testing my first student for blackbelt this Saturday (well, this Sat, Mon, Wed, Fri, & Sunday - but who's counting wink) and I'm very sure that she'll keep TKD as pure as I learned it (hopefully more so) and while I find this attractive I'm not certain if it's a driving goal.

Chris Ball said: "Nevetheless, I'm always amazed that the immediate response of a martial arts beginner is often completely unexpected." If a beginner gives you problems, learn the art so that the beginner's movements aren't only wrong - they're stupid (the movements, not the student). When I teach a new person, I tell them what to do, show them what to do, then have them do it a few times. If, however, they choose to revert to their initial instincts when pressed (and almost all do), I try and teach them a lesson as to why they shouldn't do that.

Having many friends in Olympic TKD, I often get students that lower their guard - all the talking in the world can be replaced with a stiff jab and a solid cross; and the lesson is learned forever. The same thing goes with grappling, people try and force you away with strength which sets up so many submissions that it's scary; though, of course in grappling you can't "pain" someone into learning you have to be much more gentle because the submission are more dangerous.

Just my thoughts!

Arte


Tye Botting
Administrator

Re: X-over Detraction or Benefit
Reply #9 Posted at Wed Apr 14 18:46:20 2004 IP204.196.55.102 I see your points, but of course any analogy will break down under too much scrutiny. However, I think knowing that, the analogy likening different martial arts to different languages is still useful. Some arts use different "words" for the same thing (say a response a right cross) - not all are striking arts, or external arts, or hard arts, or etc.

Perhaps we could consider that there are only a small number of languages of martial arts (say internal, external, striking, grappling, soft, hard, weapons, empty-hand), with different accents among those languages and some arts being more pidgin than others.

In reality, it's more than a difference of accent, but less than a different language. I.e. different "words" are used to respond to some combative event, but yet the combative event effectively communicates intent to all, regardless of art/language. The response "words" of an internal artist aren't anywhere near the same as those from an external artist - the power, application, structure are totally different.

Going the other way, too, languages aren't all that different by themselves - they all use sounds to communicate, sometimes vastly different, but all formed vocally or sub-vocally.

Now if we were talking telepathy vs. spoken language, then I think we'd have to say that the differences between the various arts are not as great as that wink, though even then there are some things that might fall within that realm (internal vs. external, for instance).


Tye Botting
Administrator

Re: Re: X-over Detraction or Benefit
Reply #10 Posted at Wed Apr 14 18:51:04 2004 IP204.196.55.102

On Wed Apr 14 17:35:49 2004, ArteXerxes wrote: (read quoted post)Chris Ball said: "Nevetheless, I'm always amazed that the immediate response of a martial arts beginner is often completely unexpected." If a beginner gives you problems, learn the art so that the beginner's movements aren't only wrong - they're stupid (the movements, not the student). When I teach a new person, I tell them what to do, show them what to do, then have them do it a few times. If, however, they choose to revert to their initial instincts when pressed (and almost all do), I try and teach them a lesson as to why they shouldn't do that.

Exactly. Though I wouldn't read too much into what Chris said - "unexpected" does not imply there was a problem. I know Chris and he's often been amazed at some of the stupid things beginners will do when they react. He goes on to show them why such a response is Not a Good Idea (tm), grinning all the while, just like I taught him. cheesy


Tye Botting
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Re: If I were attacked, I'd...
Reply #11 Posted at Wed Apr 14 18:57:37 2004
Last Modified at Mon Apr 19 20:23:19 2004 by Tye Botting IP204.196.55.102

On Sun Apr 11 21:52:15 2004, Chris Ball wrote: (read quoted post)One often hears "If I were attacked, I'd use KF or Karate or TKD or..." Like Dan's comment that he'd use MA for response and KF for posture. I understand that and am sure it's true. This isn't a criticism, but something always eats at the back of my mind when I hear that.

Not to be too much of an apologist, I think Dan's comment was more a recognition of what he naturally (through his training) prefers to do when reacting, rather than any supposition that he would actually pick and choose among his skills in a real confrontation. And, watching him move and respond on the spot, I'd have to concur. He seems to get the spectrum of his movements from kung fu (esp. structure), but his take on applications comes right out of modern arnis - and that's just a function of his training from the get-go; kung fu focussing more on the fine details to build on and modern arnis focussing on making things work better and better.

I know my structure and power generation comes from kung fu and taijiquan when I pull stuff out on the spot. Similarly, my joint work comes from two places (qinna for efficacy, and modern arnis for flow). My applications, however, come from all over the place: kung fu, arnis, karate, aikido, kobudo, my own warped mind... wink


Michael H.
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Re: X-over Detraction or Benefit
Reply #12 Posted at Thu Apr 15 12:33:52 2004 IP128.194.207.17 My initial reaction to MA was WOW. My current reaction to MA is WOW. That reaction comes from an instant recognition of applications to techniques shown in TKD and karate. Often, applications given for moves in TKD and karate are rather weak in a practical sense: e.g, explainations for low or high blocks or for a stance change. Today, most TKD and karate uses are for sport or tag-your-it competitions with few solid references to real world usage of what is in the forms. By Xing over to MA, I was given insight by my very excellent teacher Abel, with a very small, miniscule amount of input from that other fellow...I mean from my excellent teacher Tye tongue, what all the hand waving and stance changing could allow me to accomplish. As a higher ranking black belt in TKD with experience in several karate styles I could sense that somthing was missing. When I saw MA, I recognized what was missing from TKD and karate and that that missing element was tucked away in the forms, like savings in the bank.
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More X-over

Postby Michael H. » Sun Oct 10, 2004 6:04 pm

I had the pleasure this weekend, down here in Bryan/College Station, TX, of attending a seminar in Sadiq kali silat given by Guro Darrell Sarjeant, Chief Instructor, and hosted by some of his students in the area. The kali silat influences are out of the southern Philippines and the sadiq is out of Africa. First of all, I was impressed by the extensive use of footwork; nothing new here if you are really into MA. What was interesting was the silat take on foot placement and application of transitions and penetration. Again, nothing new, but the flavor is a bit different from MA and insightful, if you were watching what was going on. Next, the names were different, but there was the Inosanto boxing drill, a.k.a. hudod lubod (sp.) and what they called tapi-tapi. There were the foot takedowns, the gunting, the forearm can takedown, the armpit cane takedown?. Then we got into the sadiq, an African style self defense with dance moves and drum rhythms as tools to teach striking styles, off balancing, takedowns, knife technique.?; really interesting stuff. Next we went on to boxing techniques and the use of all the previous techniques with boxing/street tactics. Anyway, I had a very good time learning some really neat stuff. Interestingly, Guro Darrell emphasized going with the flow (never heard of THAT before). ;-D I will stop here. Darrell Sarjeant is out of New York, but currently is living in Oklahoma City. I had a good time, had a few insights, and exchanged a bit of conversation on the histories of the various arts and interconnections. I would encourage folks to wonder in to one of his seminars. If anything you get to see what the other styles are doing?and you just might learn a thing or two, three.

Michael H.
Michael H.
 

Postby Tye Botting » Sun Oct 10, 2004 7:40 pm

Cool - I've been meaning to check out their stuff for awhile now since I've been noticing them here and there. Always good to hear more good folk doing MA, and with the african sadiq stuff that's even cooler!
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Postby Tye Botting » Sun Oct 10, 2004 7:41 pm

BTW, this board system should be much easier to register an account for you, so you can keep track of new messages, get private ones, and etc.
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Sadiq

Postby Michael H » Sun Oct 10, 2004 8:44 pm

i tried looking up sadiq on the web and got a lot of hits on people's name and the sadiq kali silat people, but nothing on the history or background of saliq. i think i remember darrell saying something about one of his teachers being named sadiq. now i am not sure if the name of the african art was sadiq.

btw, tye. i tried registering and either the program or i am confused. i will try again. can i use michael h as my user name or does the name have to be continuous, meaning no spaces?

michale h.
Michael H
 

Postby Tye Botting » Sun Oct 10, 2004 8:45 pm

You can have a space no problem - not sure about the period though. it should let You know what's allowed and what's not.
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