Modern Arnis insidiousness

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Modern Arnis insidiousness

Postby Tye Botting » Fri Oct 08, 2004 2:34 pm

Do the rest of you find that arnis movements and flow find their way into just about everything you do, whether it be another MA style or just about anything really? I think it's a conspiracy, but I love it!

'Course I had the opposite happen this weekend; some kung fu power generation (as usual) as well as kung fu and aikido blending/flow crept into some empty-hand vs. stick I was doing when I taught this last weekend. It was a nice counter-insurgency. :lol:
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Postby TKF_Dan » Wed Oct 20, 2004 6:03 pm

I do. I think it's the simplicity and versatility of the moves. Sometimes it's easier to see the vast uses of moves in arnis...b/c of their relative simplicity...i.e. decadena - block/return backfist. When I really think about it I feel Mantis catches Cicada there(assuming a follow through strike/throw with the leading hand). But interpreting M catches C is harder for some reason...maybe it's because I am worried about doing it as properly as possible...whereas with decadena I am not focusing so much on explicit hand positions/wrist angles etc...that I can see more of the forest than the trees...
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Postby Tye Botting » Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:46 pm

Yep, I agree. Simplicity and focus on applicatons.

As you know, I've long said that the two approaches get there by different means separately (and quite well), but when done simultaneously they can bring out things that might have taken longer to see/feel in isolation. Good stuff!
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Modern Arnis insidiousness

Postby Michael H » Fri Oct 22, 2004 7:57 am

I am going to have to disagree slightly about the insidiousness point. One experience sort of highlights my stand. This judo guy and I were sitting and talking when he brings up the fact that I teach MA. Eventually, he asks me to demonstrate an application. I ask him to place his right hand on my left forearm. With his hand on my forearm, I proceeded to bring my hand up near his right ear. I broke his grip as I looped my arm into his as I set up a side-by-side shoulder dislocation. He seemed excited, then asked mt to "do that again." I was happy to oblige, since I was having fun. After my second demonstration, he utters something totally unintelligible. I asked him to repeat the word and, again, he utters something unintelligible. Then I realized that he was giving the MA technique a Japanese name. I realized again that "it is all the same.' I have seen guys in the Hong Kong KF movies doing de cadena moves or diving throws. My point is, many of the moves found in MA WILL be found in other arts. I think that MA is just helping us to realize that the technique is already there inherent to our primary martial art. My statement is not meant to underrate the stature of MA. My point is that MA is sort of like a dictionary helping us to identify the underlying meanings of words (movements) in our various martial arts.

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Postby TKF_Dan » Fri Oct 22, 2004 11:10 am

I think that proves the point perfectly. Now I don't have 20+ years of training to fall back on, so I see Tye's point from a different angle. I can't agree more that "It's all the same", but I think that MA has such a clear way of demonstrating it's usefullness and lends itself to direct understanding, whereas the more traditional arts contain all the same material, but the interpretation is not as obvious. Until I was exposed to MA I would not have made nearly the number of connections in KF that I have. How long would it have taken me to realize that I could use all the movements in our sabre form w/o the sabre and still be effective. It's that thinking outside of the box that gives MA that insidious character.
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Modern Arnis insidiousness

Postby Michael H » Fri Oct 22, 2004 11:44 am

Dan, I agree that without MA, and what Tye and Able unveiled right before my eyes, I likely would be still groping in the dark when it comes to having an understanding of what TKD has to offer. Perhaps if I reinterpret the term "insidiousness" I will have to agree with you. And yes, it is a lot of fun to "see" stuff and then to see stuff within stuff. The Silat Kali seminar I went to here in B-CS a few weeks ago was a really good example seeing the same stuff from a different perspective. The example I gave in my previous post-my conversation with the judo guy-was just one occasion where I made something up on the spur of the moment from a baseline technique, then realized-this time later-that the same movement could be an application of a TKD outside middle block.

What is fun right now is the reaction from one of my students, who has no previous martial arts exposure, simply delighted when he "gets" what I am trying to teach him or when he realizes that all the techniques of that lesson are merely the same technique with varied applications.
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Postby TKF_Dan » Fri Oct 22, 2004 11:50 am

Well I can't agree more on the fun part of things. There is nothing more exciting then the lightbulb clicking on over your head. It is so neat to make connections that were not there before. The interweaving of all the styles is truly fantastic. There is a certain satisfaction one has when interacting with others(that don't have an MA background). I like that I can almost immediately interpret material I have no prior experience with b/c the MA repsonse is built in. In fact MA is kind of like the Ockham's Razor of martial arts, not in that MA is an answer, but it's simplicity just works it's way into to everything.
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MA Insidiousness

Postby Michael H » Fri Oct 22, 2004 1:37 pm

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Aside from learning not to tie my strings from the left and right shoes together, I learned something else today. Thanks, Dan. I had to look up Ockham's Razor. Meanwhile, a related rule, which can be used to slice open conspiracy theories, is Hanlon's Razor: ``Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity''.

I was watching one of the Professor's old tapes, circa 1985, in which he was demonstrating abanico double action, with cane. Then he proceeded to give the empty had application. I was surprised by how close my interpretation came to his; well, to the ONE he showed that day.

I am repeating an old story, but I was also surprised by how closely the silat kali resembled MA; even down to the Inasanto boxing drill (though they called it tapi-tapi).
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Postby TKF_Dan » Fri Oct 22, 2004 2:32 pm

I hope that you derive some satisfaction out of that observation(the professor's interpretation being similar to yours). It shows how far you have come in MA. I think you've got a great eye/feel for all of this. But that just comes back to working the material...
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Re: Modern Arnis insidiousness

Postby Mike Casto » Thu Oct 28, 2004 12:28 am

Tye Botting wrote:Do the rest of you find that arnis movements and flow find their way into just about everything you do, whether it be another MA style or just about anything really? I think it's a conspiracy, but I love it!

'Course I had the opposite happen this weekend; some kung fu power generation (as usual) as well as kung fu and aikido blending/flow crept into some empty-hand vs. stick I was doing when I taught this last weekend. It was a nice counter-insurgency. :lol:


Absolutely. But it's not just that. It's also balance disruption from Kuntao, Silat, and Shen Chuan. It's locks from, well from everything, but influenced by Shen Chuan. It's everything.

I think it's just that anything we train regularly and ingrain in our bodies will come out. That's why we train it regularly and why we do so many repetitions, right? :)

Mike
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Modern Arnis insidiousness

Postby Michael H » Thu Oct 28, 2004 7:43 am

I agree that practice and repetition will bring out the best in you. One thing that Tye and Abel were ALWAYS doing was playing "what if I do this?". The professor is always bringing up "what if?". The same with some of our other top instructors; Tye and Abel included. Seeing alternative moves in a technique while practicing, i think, also helps in "creating" variations when needed and also allows one time to explore such techniques as energy transfer/concentration and body dynamics. A solid foundation in the basics allows for a solid stepping stone into the undiscovered.

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