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For those that lift weights...

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 7:56 am
by Tye Botting
...and are frustrated when they see what passes for squats in the gym, i.e. curtseys, here's a nifty shirt for you:

I know I'm getting at least one for gym usage!

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:27 am
by TKF_Dan

PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 12:04 pm
by Gator
That is great.

I got my son squatting with a medicine ball right now, just for form.

I have to wrap my knees now even if I train light with squats. I guess at 43 they have had it.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 12:06 pm
by Tye Botting
Ouch! Don't tell me that. Just turned 40 and no real knee problems ever, but just last week developed some nagging pain in them that won't go away (started running again, at the same time as starting up the SuperSquat program: 20 reps with a weight you can normally only do 10 reps at, breathing in between). Bad combo on the same day I think. :-o

PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 12:09 pm
by Gator
Yeah, I worked for Jack LaLanne, so I was squatting heavy and teaching aerobic classes. Kind of gay, but I did meet my wife so it was worth it.

Anyway, I blame the aerobics for my knees, not the squats.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 12:19 pm
by Tye Botting
Yep, I blame the running after the squats, not the squats. I really feel squats (PL legal depth) are very safe and not a problem for normal healthy knees. You don't accelerate/decelerate at the point of maximum shear like you would on a partial squat where you only go to a 90-degree angle at the knee, and you have to use less weight since they are more difficult. I also feel they actually help your knees track better and build the connective tissue well for all around benefit.

Also, if you were teaching the aerobics on a hard floor and especially if you got cold before going out there and aerobicizing, then yep knees would be not happy at all. I used to teach a lot for my kung fu master instructor, doing it all day long. Of course I'd get cold and then have to correct by showing or some such - a few months of that and my knees were killing me. Warmed up, even on a hard floor it was no problem, just doing it cold. After I didn't have time to do that anymore, it stopped.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:01 pm
by BenGarcia
Wait, wait, wait. If I may, what is PL legal depth? Does that have anything to do with NOT going down to 90 degrees at the knees? I thought you are supposed to go down to 90 ds. Isn't that why squats suck so much? :?

PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:06 pm
by Gator
It's actually a little deeper, but Tye will know more specifics.

I haven't competed in Power Lifting, but my college roommate is one of the top masters at 198 in NJ.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 4:00 pm
by Tye Botting
BenGarcia wrote:Wait, wait, wait. If I may, what is PL legal depth? Does that have anything to do with NOT going down to 90 degrees at the knees? I thought you are supposed to go down to 90 ds. Isn't that why squats suck so much? :?

Technically, most federations have that the top crease where the top of the thigh meets the hip must be just at/below the top of the knees. If you want to ensure your lift will be accepted, you usually go a tad below that; say to where the top of the thickest part of the thigh is at or below the top of your knee. This is far past 90 degrees.

90 degrees, IMHO, is exactly the worst point to start and stop at, for the reasons I've stated about shear forces and supra-maximal weights (relative to legal squats) being used. Partials that don't quite go to 90 are good for developing core and spinal strength but won't do a whole lot for your leg strength. Squats past the 90-degree angle of the knees are also good, but more for leg strength and size.

Here's a link to a legal squat depth diagram from an article for a very well-respected powerlifting federation: ... ovice.html

I usually go as deep as the C and D diagrams, unless I'm doing partials or just plain playing around.

The difference in ease of doing a 90-degree squat to a full PL legal squat can be hundreds of pounds. I remember when I was squatting 405 legal without wraps and suit, I could also squat nearly 600 to a 90-degree level, and I could do walk-outs with 800.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 6:46 pm
by TKF_Dan
+1 to your last statement.

I see people all the time squatting 100 lbs more than I do. But in my mind I know that if I were going down 45-70 degrees, I could put up 315 too. I just take pride in the fact that I know I'm doing it right and one day I'll be there.

PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 4:05 am
by Tinkerbell
If you do it enough, your body becomes stronger in that position. Heavy partials shouldn't necessarily be overlooked though, rather than taken as a staple :-)

PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 8:33 am
by TKF_Dan
I'm certainly not knocking partials, as long as you're not doing them in a damaging way (the whole 90 degrees, knee strain issue). I'm just knocking the people who are convinced these are "legal and proper" squats. That's all :-)

PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 8:11 pm
by Tinkerbell
Yeah, leave them to their own.

Give a million people the key to the universe and only one will use it to open the door.

PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 11:47 am
by BenGarcia
OK, well, I get the distinction about partials, greater-than-90 bends...etc. But, I'm still more concerned about the effect on the knees. From what you all are saying, a > 90 degrees squat is worse on the knees than a partial, but still not as damaging as a 90 degree squat, yes? Am I to conclude that squats screw up my knees any which way I do them?

It's kind of weird, but single-leg squats don't seem to hurt my knees AS I'M DOING THEM like normal squats do. Anyone else feel the same?

PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 11:50 am
by Tye Botting
No, no - there's nothing inherently bad about squats of any type, unless you go to hyperflexion (bending so far that the knee seperates - basically ass-on-heels). Again, this is assuming normal healthy knees of course.

And you *DO* however have to make sure your form is right... Thinks like angle of knees relative to toes, feet placement, position of the back, etc, etc, etc, and etc. Though, if you do them like our horse-riding stance, you should be OK.