Advanced Modern Arnis people

For discussions of Remy Presas' Modern Arnis and other Filipino martial arts.

Advanced Modern Arnis people

Postby Tye Botting » Wed Aug 25, 2004 9:04 pm

From the old forums...

Tye Botting
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Advanced Modern Arnis people
Started at Thu Mar 11 15:59:40 2004
Last Modified at Fri Mar 12 20:27:39 2004 by Tye Botting IP199.184.208.111 So, who are some advanced (lakan lima and above) Modern Arnis people you've met, crossed sticks/hands with, heard of, etc?

I'm looking for stories, training peculiarities and tips; anything that will help people get to know some of the longtime players in Modern Arnis.

For me, it's only Professor Presas (lakan sampu) of course, but also Datu Dieter Knuettel (lakan pito I hear, 7th degree, though mostly he came up through the ranks under GM Ernesto Presas), Datu Tim Hartman (lakan anim, 6th degree), IMAF Co-inheritors Dr. Randi Schea and Jeff Delaney (both lakan lima I think, 5th degree) and the Masters of Tapi-Tapi. All were quite good in their own way, but different too. Which I think is good, especially if we can work together to give all of their varied pieces of what the professor had to offer fertile ground in which to grow.

I've also met and crossed sticks with GM Anding de Leon (lakan apat {4th degree} in MA and head of his own system of Arnis de Leon).

I've heard of other old-timers, like Rocky Pasiwk (lakan lima in MA, and head of his own style Cuentada de Mano), Dan Anderson (lakan anim I think), Robert Demott (lakan pito I think), Roland Dantes (lakan walo), and Datu Shishir Inocalla (lakan anim I think?), but I've not had the pleasure to meet or train with any of them (yet!).

Hopefully, my listings of their rank aren't out of date right now - some of them I only met when they were lower (Datu Knuettel was 6th degree when I met him - and I definitely learned a lot).

I'm starting this thread because many of us (including me, after all I'm only a lowly lakan dalawa {2nd deg}, having started in 1994) aren't familiar with a lot of the old-timers in Modern Arnis, and it'd be nice to hear some personal accounts of training with them.


Roland

Re: Advanced Modern Arnis people
Reply #1 Posted at Thu Mar 11 17:50:13 2004 IP151.199.216.27 Well, I have always felt that to get a better impression of the full spectrum of the Professor's art it was important to train/touch hands with people from varying eras to see what they felt were important elements at that time. So, I have tried to meet/train with as many of the high level folks as I financially can. Some of the people I have had the privilege of meeting/training with are (in no particular order):

Professor
Master Rick Ward
Masters of Tapi Tapi
Roland Dantes
Rodel Dagooc
Professor's Children (Demetrio and Remy jr., did not get to train with Mary Ann though would like to)
Tim Hartmann
Shishir Inocalla
Doug Pierre
Willy Matias
David Hoffman

Folks I would like to train with:

The remaining Datus (Kelly Worden, Dieter, Bong Journales)
Vic Sanchez (the other 8th Degree in the PI)
Bambit Dulay (9th?? head of IMAF Phil.)
Rocky Pasiwk
Dan Anderson
Jim Powers
Rick Mitchell

Only time and finances will tell how far along the list I can go.

One thing I can say is each has their own spark of the Professor within them and have valuable insights to offer. I am also impressed at how each has taken the Professor's dream and incorporated it into themselves.

Sorry for the long post


Roland

Re: Advanced Modern Arnis people
Reply #2 Posted at Thu Mar 11 17:53:18 2004 IP151.199.216.27 Add to the list I would like to train with...

Anding deLeon
Dean Stockwell


ArteXerxes

Re: Advanced Modern Arnis people
Reply #3 Posted at Thu Mar 11 19:37:02 2004 IP68.84.86.140 I trained with Mangisursuro Mike Inay a couple of times, does that count?

Arte


Tye Botting
Administrator

Re: Re: Advanced Modern Arnis people
Reply #4 Posted at Thu Mar 11 19:47:44 2004 IP199.184.208.111

On Thu Mar 11 17:53:18 2004, Roland wrote: (read quoted post)Add to the list I would like to train with...

Anding deLeon
Dean Stockwell

Anding is a good, super-nice guy. Likes powerful big techniques, and has a PI view of GM Remy's Modern Arnis, albeit with a bit of karate flavor (Anding is also a karateka among other things). And he produces good students. As for Dean Stockwell, yep that'd be fun for a number of reasons - seems like quite a character. Plus, I hear he basically developed what we use now as "reverse sinawali". wink

On Thu Mar 11 19:37:02 2004, ArteXerxes wrote: (read quoted post)I trained with Mangisursuro Mike Inay a couple of times, does that count?

No and yes. *grin* He's not a modern arnis guy, but I most definitely consider you lucky to have trained with him. I've had some lengthy discussions with Inayan people and a lot of the things that I kind of dissected from Professor Presas seemed to fit right in line with the way the Inayans think. And I think much of the material is quite similar or even the same. For example, I loved that drill you shared with us at the Fest before last (though I still need to work it more - so much to do!), and it seemed to fit in well with our 1-2 drill (the empty-hand tapi-tapi I showed you at the same time).


Chris Ball

Re: Advanced Modern Arnis people
Reply #5 Posted at Sun Apr 11 22:13:53 2004 IP69.0.98.143 Most of y'all know the people I've met, but I'll list them for those who don't know me. In order of my meeting them (see Tye's post for their rank):

Jeff Delaney
Tim Hartman
Anding de Leon
Brian Zawalinski (Master of Tapi Tapi)

NO I've never met anyone in Pekiti Tirsia !! rolleyes

Rather than showing who we've met, I'd love to hear what people saw as different across them. Here's my take. These are "first impression" type comments.

Delaney is smooth, analytical and technical. Among the 4 I've met, he was by far the best instructor, laying out and clarifying the fundamentals that make each technique work. He's a very conscience arnistador.

Hartman and Zawalinski strike me as being cut from the same cloth in that both are the type that carries a big stick and hits the opponent hard in the head twice to make the joint locks work with ease. One also gets the feeling that these guys have both seen their share of real life situations. This isn't to down play their technical abilities, just to point out their shift of emphasis.

With Anding, my first thought is "fast and mobile". He moved more than any arnistador I've ever seen live or on video. I've never been sure what to make of him. Not in a bad sense, he was just so different in my opinion. I'd like to here Doc Hume's thoughts here.

Well those are my two cents. I'd love to hear others' takes on the big guns.


michael H

Re: Advanced Modern Arnis people
Reply #6 Posted at Mon Apr 12 18:38:58 2004 IP128.194.207.17 Chris,

This is a bit off the topic, but....

The movement may be a size/mobility thing, in spite of the neutralizing effects of locks, throws, etc, of MA. I watched Shishir Inocalla move while he was demonstrating espada y daga. I think his movement and agility were similar to de Leon's. Inocalla is smaller than both de Leon and myself. Could you imagine de leon or myself going toe to toe with Tye? It ain't going to happen. Tye's physical mass would squash us. So, we have to make up for the lack of size with quickness, adroitness, agility, and deathliness: i.e., get in, get to the place you want to be, with the technique you desire, get the job done. Now, this is not to say that a bigger person can't be quick. I saw an ex-TAMU footballer, say >=250 lb. move during sparring like he was a 100-lb weakling like me.


rjay04

Re: Advanced Modern Arnis people
Reply #7 Posted at Fri Apr 16 15:42:35 2004 IP204.66.28.135 Hey Chris,

Your comments were very interesting to me! I have learned very quickly that size is not always a factor. I am problly about 175-180 lbs. so yes you are right smaller people need to rely on speed quickness and agility. My intructor for arnis is even smaller than me but he is so quick and powerfull that he could handle his opponent well! I was introduced to martial arts through my University! Three instructors combined teach jiu jitsu, tae kwondo, arnis and kung fu! Previously I was sampling alil of everything but recently I have only been going to Arnis and taking Kung Fu to compliment my arnis! I enjoy them both very well! Good luck to your learning. Im still sore from last nites Kung Fu! God Bless!

Rjay04grin


Tye Botting
Administrator

Re: Re: Advanced Modern Arnis people
Reply #8 Posted at Fri Apr 16 16:33:32 2004 IP204.196.55.102

On Mon Apr 12 18:38:58 2004, michael H wrote: (read quoted post)Tye's physical mass would squash us.

LOL, you make me sound like a giant (or a fatso) - I'm only 175lbs, man. Geez, Chris is bigger than I, I think. Just because you're all skin, muscle, and bone doesn't mean that the rest of us normal people are heavyweights. Besides, you're an unsurpassed curler. wink


Dan S

Re: Advanced Modern Arnis people
Reply #9 Posted at Fri Apr 16 22:09:07 2004 IP204.210.96.119 I never imagined Dr. Hume out on a frozen lake like that. Does he slide the stone, or sweep the ice?


Michael H

Re: Advanced Modern Arnis people
Reply #10 Posted at Sun Apr 18 18:03:09 2004 IP128.194.207.53 While curling, I usually get a good running start and belly plop....Oh, wrong sport. Tye is talking about my ability to curl 60-65 lb...with one arm...supported (i.e., with a base) or non-supported. Being a 100-lb weakling, I thought guys Tye's size would be curling at least 80-90 lb with no trouble, since, while training on my heavy weight routine, I can manage 65 lb with at least 5 reps. Besides, Tye does all of that olympic stuff with the squats and all. When Tye is in weight lifting form, he can look massive, dispite his claim of weighing in at 175.

Now, back to the topic off topic...people like Tye have this massive form, plus excellent power transfer. People like me have a hope and maybe a prayer, so we have to be quicker and accurate. A good TKD tactic for me is to see how well the other guy/gal moves and reacts. This takes a few seconds. Once you have a good idea how (s)he moves, find a few weaknesses. This takes a few probes.

MA is a different story. I don't worry to mush about size during our sham sparring with the soft canes or the Sport Flex. I am more concerned about parry and countering.

Shishir Inacolla was telling us that when you are using espada y daga, "Go crazy." Meaning move, stick/slash/cut with the knife, strike with the cane, and move. That to me meant that you don't give the other guy a chance to wonder about what you are doing, because you are all over him/her, committed and your only concern is to finish the other guy off as quickly and as easily as possible. When he started talking like that I liked him even more.


Chris Ball

Re: Advanced Modern Arnis people
Reply #11 Posted at Tue May 25 21:08:52 2004 IP192.152.243.121 I've just returned from Alabama and Florida. Rough academic work schedules.cool

Anyway, I weigh in at 185-195 believe it or not. Actually, it's sad. I should weigh less, but love sweets, BBQ, alcohol, ...

Okay, I think a lot about sizes and weights. I am often surprised at large people who are a) limber and b) extremely light on their feet. You find that out quickly when sparring, I agree. I have also noticed that some arm techniques (locks and such) are harder to pull off on large people (and here I mean fat, for lack of a better word), but leg techniques to the knees are very effective. I remember Doc "The Curl King" Hume telling me once of watching Shea drop Tullis with a tullock without a blink. Clearly one can and should exploit body types.

Picking up your line with Tye, I'd avoid getting in close, not because he's such a whale (sorry, I couldn't resist), but because whenever he grabbed me he pretzeled me up in painful ways I didn't like. BUT, you can't experiment on the street like you can in sparring. But most of our MA techniques have you enter. Given the element of surprise, how comfortable would you be entering on a large biker (not a Tye reference) that you didn't know on the street?

The Escrima digest had a link to some Canadian guy's website who apparently taught Vin Diesel some moves for his latest movie. Anyway, there are short videos on his site for their disarms 1-5. The striking thing about them was that they were done amid a barrage of strikes. It was like doing our striking styles practice and ending with a disarm every time.

Connecting thought and quote from Master Brian Z: "It's easier to pull off this disarm if you've hit him in the head really hard first".

Some of the benefit of flow and sinawalis is to overcome size differences. Being able to constantly hit (practiced in part through sinawalis among other things) while executing techniques may be the great leveler. To do that while exploiting body types may be best.

There's no point to all this. Just random thinking. But as I walked through the airport yesterday and looked at the different people, I always wonder how I would modify things. For some big people, I would use hit and run tactics for sure, but maybe that's the wrong assumption. They wouldn't be expecting a little guy like me to enter on them and take their balance. I don't know.

Lastly, why does Hume still have guest status?


Michael H

Re: Advanced Modern Arnis people
Reply #12 Posted at Wed May 26 12:27:20 2004 IP128.194.207.53 Chris, welcome back; all tanned and buffed I am sure.

My comment about Dr. Shea and Earl was not that Shea dropped Earl, but that with little apparent effort he (~110 lb) was able to move and control Earl (~250 lb).

The Professor talked about mowing through people; the short-duration fight. He also talked about when people don't do what you wanted them to do, while executing a technique on them, hurt them. I like that advice. Chris, as you are aware, a technique like a disarm is not executed in a vacuum. A good technique is usually preceded by some softening-up tactics to get their mind off of what it is you really want to do to them; especially againt a person bigger than you and your first foray didn't do the job.

As far as the membership goes...I'm still working on that little problem I have with commitment. See ya.
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Postby kruzada » Sun Aug 28, 2005 7:58 am

Senior Master Samuel "Bambit" Dulay recently visited our group in June. The last time I trained with him was in 1998 in the Philippines. He conducted a seminar for my group in NYC, and everyone was in awe of his speed, skill and his seemingly unending wealth of knowledge in Arnis.

He covered classical Sumbradas, Corto-range techniques, Tapi-Tapi, Stick locks, Doble Baston Amara, Knife drills and disarms. He also taught semi-private group lessons where he expanded on these topics and taught Mano Mano applications against multiple attackers.

He announced during our seminar that the IMAFP Council of Masters had decided to award equivalent rank to all Kuntaw Kali Kruzada instructors. Many of our students registered themselves as official members of IMAFP during SM Bambit's stay in NY. All this is due to Master Rico Acosta's and our group's long standing dedication to helping to promote Philippine Modern Arnis.

I talked about Arnis with SM Bambit for over three days traveling to the city and back in between our training sessions. During my private lessons he has shown me the intricacies of both the classical techniques and the modern innovations of GM Remy such as Tapi-Tapi. He has so much knowledge that it is no wonder that he is one of the most Senior Masters of Modern Arnis.

Senior Master Samuel Dulay is ranked 7th Degree in Modern Arnis. He was promoted to 6th Degree by Grandmaster Remy before his untimely demise and was later promoted to 7th Degree by the IMAFP Council of Masters; SM Cristino Vasquez, SM Rodel Dagooc, SM Rene Tongson and Grandmaster Roberto Presas (GM Remy's brother), all promoted to ranks higher than 7th Degree by GM Remy in 2000.

Other Masters of Modern Arnis in the Philippines under IMAFP are GM Vicente Sanchez (www.kaliarnisinternational.com), SM Armando Soteco, SM Noel Penaredondo and SM Godofredo Fajardo.

Rich Acosta
Kuntaw Kali Kruzada
Chief Instructor

----

IMAFP - International Modern Arnis Federation of the Philippines background information copied from official website www.imafp.com

"Grandmaster Remy Presas formed the Modern Arnis Federation of the Philippines in 1972 before leaving for a global promotion of Arnis, entrusting the art to a student from his family circle to continue it in the Philippines. As the father of Modern Arnis and an ambassador of Filipino Martial Arts to the U.S.A., he organized the International Modern Arnis Federation Inc. in June 1991 and received the Hall of Fame Award for the 3rd time. Prof. Remy A. Presas dreamed of Modern Arnis becoming the Martial Art of the World before he retired and brought the art back to his homeland. The International Modern Arnis Federation Philippines, Inc. (IMAFP) was founded by Grandmaster Remy A. Presas in February 2000 in Manila before he passed away on August 28, 2001. To this day we still mourn the loss of a great teacher, fighter and Father of Modern Arnis."
kruzada
 


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